Author Topic: It's the end of the World... of Warcraft.  (Read 9818 times)

Offline Manyana

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It's the end of the World... of Warcraft.
« on: March 12, 2009, 05:06:51 PM »
http://blue.mmo-champion.com/1/15671259164-is-ulduar-going-to-be-epic.html

Fuck.
Fuuuuuuuuuuuck.
MOTHERFUCKER! *headdesk* *headwall* *facepalm*
That's it ladies and gents, I have officially lost what little hope I had left for this game. Uludar is bound to be nothing but fail. MOTHERFUCKING EPIC FAIL. I wouldn't be surprised by a world first clear by the end of the day of its release. GG Blizz, I'm sure the five year old chimpanzees with tourette's syndrome will enjoy the challenging new content.
« Last Edit: March 23, 2009, 04:44:41 PM by Manyana »

Offline quixote

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Re: It's the end of the World... of Warcraft.
« Reply #1 on: March 12, 2009, 10:41:08 PM »
maybe he's saying titanic > epic?  epic would be an understatement?  we could only hope =S

Offline Manyana

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Re: It's the end of the World... of Warcraft.
« Reply #2 on: March 12, 2009, 10:59:17 PM »
Yeah, it isn't that, it's his definition of epic that made me want to shoot myself.

Battling Kel'Thuzad is pretty epic. Sapphiron is no slouch either.

... excuse me? You mean those guys we nearly one-shotted on our first Naxx run? Yeah... epic, huh?

Fuck.

Offline Arkanos

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Re: It's the end of the World... of Warcraft.
« Reply #3 on: March 13, 2009, 02:18:25 AM »
Well, hopefully the feed back they're getting on the ptrs will make them un-crappify encounters.  I can hope, can't it?
Theres no such thing as innocence, only degrees of guilt.

Offline Pudie

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Re: It's the end of the World... of Warcraft.
« Reply #4 on: March 13, 2009, 10:39:57 AM »
I don't think people give Blizz enough credit.  Sure you can PuG Nax.  And they did dumb down raiding in general so more people could do it.  But it makes sense to do that. 

But what a lot of people seem to forget is the hard mode/achievements.  Something like %1 has done Immortal(no death on heroic 25 man Nax), and about 20% of guilds have done Undying.  Strath 3D seems to be the most popular hard mode achievement.  And I dare anyone to tell me it's easy. 

These are a great way to get more people raiding and seeing content while still giving a challenge to those who want it.  And Ulduar has almost all of the bosses with these types of challenges.

Offline Manyana

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Re: It's the end of the World... of Warcraft.
« Reply #5 on: March 13, 2009, 04:47:57 PM »
I don't think people give Blizz enough credit.  Sure you can PuG Nax.  And they did dumb down raiding in general so more people could do it.  But it makes sense to do that. 

But what a lot of people seem to forget is the hard mode/achievements.  Something like %1 has done Immortal(no death on heroic 25 man Nax), and about 20% of guilds have done Undying.  Strath 3D seems to be the most popular hard mode achievement.  And I dare anyone to tell me it's easy. 

These are a great way to get more people raiding and seeing content while still giving a challenge to those who want it.  And Ulduar has almost all of the bosses with these types of challenges.

So, it makes sense to make the content so fucking pussy ass weak that 3 days after the release of WotLK everything is already cleared. Yeeeeeeah, I'm gonna call bullshit on that. And as far as achievements go, the only hard-mode that's even remotely hard is Sarth103D (not 25, because that is easy =P) and the reason it is hard is because there's no room for anyone to make mistakes. Getting the immortal achievement isn't hard so much as tedious - aka not having any retards in the group that get killed by stupid shit. Even if this allows more people to see the content that's what the 10 man/25 man thing is for, yet they made both modes incredibly weak.

Uludar is probably going to be as challenging as breathing.

Offline Genevyeve

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Re: It's the end of the World... of Warcraft.
« Reply #6 on: March 13, 2009, 05:41:53 PM »
Once you're completely geared out with all the Naxx gear available it does get tough being motivated to continue going there each week.  I'm not a big achievements guy and have volunteered to sit out for any Immortal runs should there be extra people online to run them.  I find achievements to be another gimmick by Blizz to keep people playing in the game.  I find them about as exciting as rep grinds.

Now onto the challenge that is current content... there aren't any IMO but that is based on the situation I've been lucky to find myself a part of.  Raiding with Mimic has spoiled me because I can personally say that 25-man 3D is easy.  That said, when I was still running casually as a PuG for a friend's guild getting 3 wings down was difficult.  Similarly, when playing on my old horde toon in TBC clearing Kara was tough.  Different people are focused on different aspects of the game.  Being a part of a driven raid team makes raiding current content easier than being a part of a group where raiding comes secondary.

Blizz has catered current content at casuals more so than hardcore.  Although I believe Ulduar will be more of a challenge than 3.0, I don't expect it to take long for hardcore raid guilds to clear it.  I look forward more to the 3rd patch release to have the Sunwell-type very difficult encounters.

Offline Pudie

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Re: It's the end of the World... of Warcraft.
« Reply #7 on: March 13, 2009, 07:54:01 PM »
I don't think people give Blizz enough credit.  Sure you can PuG Nax.  And they did dumb down raiding in general so more people could do it.  But it makes sense to do that. 

But what a lot of people seem to forget is the hard mode/achievements.  Something like %1 has done Immortal(no death on heroic 25 man Nax), and about 20% of guilds have done Undying.  Strath 3D seems to be the most popular hard mode achievement.  And I dare anyone to tell me it's easy. 

These are a great way to get more people raiding and seeing content while still giving a challenge to those who want it.  And Ulduar has almost all of the bosses with these types of challenges.

So, it makes sense to make the content so fucking pussy ass weak that 3 days after the release of WotLK everything is already cleared. Yeeeeeeah, I'm gonna call bullshit on that. And as far as achievements go, the only hard-mode that's even remotely hard is Sarth103D (not 25, because that is easy =P) and the reason it is hard is because there's no room for anyone to make mistakes. Getting the immortal achievement isn't hard so much as tedious - aka not having any retards in the group that get killed by stupid shit. Even if this allows more people to see the content that's what the 10 man/25 man thing is for, yet they made both modes incredibly weak.

Uludar is probably going to be as challenging as breathing.

Nax was cleared that fast by world first guilds.  It could have been hard and it still would have been easy for those guys.

As far as not making mistakes on Strath 3D, that's sorta the point and what makes it hard and fun. 

If Immortal isn't hard why have so few people done it?  It requires more then not being an idiot.  No one can die. On any boss.  At all.  You have to bring your absolute A game to get it.

You also need to keep in mind this is still the first tier of Wrath, with 3 more to come.  While they have said we will never see something as hard as Sunwell again it will get harder.  And hard modes and the like are here to stay to make it harder. 

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Once you're completely geared out with all the Naxx gear available it does get tough being motivated to continue going there each week.

That's pretty much any raid ever.  The only point of going after that is an alt and having some fun with your guildies.

My point is, is that people need to change their idea of raiding from "Oh the boss is dead, raid is done" to "ok, we learned to kill the boss, now lets try this achievement and make it harder and keep it challenging".  It just doesnt make sense for Blizzard to make something as hard as Sunwell that 10% of the entire gaming population get to see.  It's a waste of development time and money, bad business, and not fair to the other 90%.

Offline Manyana

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Re: It's the end of the World... of Warcraft.
« Reply #8 on: March 14, 2009, 12:15:48 AM »
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Nax was cleared that fast by world first guilds.  It could have been hard and it still would have been easy for those guys.

You're not looking at this the right way. Those world first guilds used to actually have a hard time clearing things. Nobody cleared BT 3 days after its release - get my drift?

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As far as not making mistakes on Strath 3D, that's sorta the point and what makes it hard and fun. 

10 man Sarth3D is like that, not 25 man. It isn't hard, it's simply a matter of people avoiding the flamewall and the fissures - aka retard check.

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If Immortal isn't hard why have so few people done it?  It requires more then not being an idiot.  No one can die. On any boss.  At all.  You have to bring your absolute A game to get it.

It's not that hard, we've had runs with only 2-3 deaths, and the people that did die, died because they were being retards - aka dying to a polarity shift on Thad, drawing aggro from Saph and not spreading out enough on KT thus chain ice-blocking people. All of these things are completely avoidable.

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You also need to keep in mind this is still the first tier of Wrath, with 3 more to come.  While they have said we will never see something as hard as Sunwell again it will get harder.  And hard modes and the like are here to stay to make it harder. 

The term harder when used in conjunction with content in WoW at the moment equates to 'Slightly more difficult than wussy mode'.

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My point is, is that people need to change their idea of raiding from "Oh the boss is dead, raid is done" to "ok, we learned to kill the boss, now lets try this achievement and make it harder and keep it challenging".  It just doesnt make sense for Blizzard to make something as hard as Sunwell that 10% of the entire gaming population get to see.  It's a waste of development time and money, bad business, and not fair to the other 90%.

I don't know where you got this idea about raiding, but it certainly doesn't reflect what most people I know think about it. It's a lot of things, but right now, as it stands this games' difficult mode is anything but. And again, I see this 'It's not fair' stuff. I'll tell you what's not fair. It's not fair that there are those who put a lot more effort into raiding than others only to be disappointed because Blizz deemed it necessary to dumb everything down. They should have simply kept the 10 man version of an instance easy while making the 25 man version as difficult as previous raid content, that way the serious gamers would still be challenged while everyone who isn't a hard-core gamer could still see all the content. That would make perfect sense. And how was Sunwell bad for business? Last I checked there has been a steady increase in subscribers.
« Last Edit: March 14, 2009, 12:21:46 AM by Manyana »

Offline Pudie

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Re: It's the end of the World... of Warcraft.
« Reply #9 on: March 14, 2009, 03:56:23 AM »
I'm not denying it's easy mode right now.  It is.  But like I said, it's still the first tier of 4.  Only time will tell how hard it really gets. But Blizzard so far has done pretty damn good.  I have faith that we will see some truly challenging fights on the level of bosses like Kael, Illidan, etc and that it will give "real" raiders the fights they crave. 

Should stuff still be as hard as Sunwell?  Maybe, but it's personal opinion.  I understand wanting something that says "You're good enough to get this or be here.  Here you go.".  But I also understand people who can't put in that sort of investment into the game still wanting more than just scraps.  And I think Blizz is doing a pretty good job of balancing it out. 

Offline Genevyeve

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Re: It's the end of the World... of Warcraft.
« Reply #10 on: March 14, 2009, 02:54:49 PM »
I believe you fail to mention the most common reason for deaths centering around Raz   ;)

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Correct me if I'm wrong but Kara was also cleared within a couple of weeks of TBC being released?  I wouldn't be surprised if it were the same with SSC, TK, MH and BT if the attunements didn't exist (and they possibly could have been done even with the attunements... alas I do not know their history.)  One can't compare world firsts because the guilds competing for these spend months on the PTR practicing to the point that when released on live it is pretty much on farm for them (and raid 6-7 days per week on live to get those world firsts.)

Also, one can't compare Naxx difficulty with Sunwell because TBC was also released in different stages.  That is why I'm not concerned with how easy Naxx has been because of the history with game releases.

Now if we get to Icecrown raiding and the encounters are as simple as Naxx then I would concede that raiding has been dumbed down.  At this point it's unknown what exactly will occur with Ulduar or Icecrown other than the vague comments made by Blizz.

I still don't think achievements add much to the game...

Offline quixote

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Re: It's the end of the World... of Warcraft.
« Reply #11 on: March 14, 2009, 07:58:26 PM »
IMO, the problem is, it feels like Blizz only catered to casual/semi-casual and Arena (hi i'm a professional at playing video games and QQ'ing about pvp balance) players for the majority of WotLK.  Sure, I think its great that they're "easing us in," but anyone who plays 6 hours a week and has since release most likely has cleared the same content as people who research their class, invest tons of time in perfecting their playstyle, gear, gemming, etc. and work with a group of 24+ people regularly with a high level of teamwork.  If Ulduar continues that, I will be very disappointed.  I can barely cope with how easy it is now.  We're what, 5 months in, and we ran out of content a couple months ago.  I think our full WotlK all-raid clear took us under 4 hours last week...  /fail

Offline Cedric

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Re: It's the end of the World... of Warcraft.
« Reply #12 on: March 15, 2009, 12:55:48 AM »
Is Wrath really too easy, or are we as players just better prepared, geared, and hip to Blizzards encounter designs?

Remember in the days of vanilla WoW when a single casting bar was all that was required or needed? Jump ahead now to 4 years later and look at some of the spell bars of some classes being 2-3 rows deep. We've come a long way since then, and are much better prepared(coached might be the better word??) with all of the available information on strategy sites and whatnot, or access to the PTR before the content is released.

What sucks for me is seeing raid sign-ups with links to the so-called strategy sites, and requirements to "read and know the strategy" prior to zoning into the raid instance. That is what is taking the fun out things for me. I remember very well the early days when the SRA started and the multiple wipes we had just to get Lucifron down. But it was SUCH a feeling of accomplishment when we finally managed to get the boss down....to the point that loot was actually secondary in importance in the grand scheme of things for me.

Seems we're all caught up in the catch-22 of needing to know the fights before we step foot in the instances anymore, because now it seems that "wiping" or actually learning the encounters firsthand is "too troublesome" for everyone. We only have ourselves to blame for letting this become the popular method of running raids.

I challenge anyone to do Sarth-3D or Malygos, 10 or 25 man, without ever having stepped foot inside the instance or having laid eyes on a strategy guide. I guarantee there will be wipes and a steep learning curve if raids were to be done "how they used to be done".

I've complained before that things were too easy, but after having stepped back and looked at how much strategy guides have gimped the current state of WoW raiding, I've changed my stance on things quite a bit. Some of it may be Blizzards fault, but the majority of the blame lay squarely at the feet of the player base in adopting this "strategy guide" mindset and allowing it to flourish.

However, on the other side of the coin, and to play devils advocate here, lets consider that Blizzard actually did some cost analysis:

Let's say Blizzard actually made a cost/benefit determination of developing what some consider "hardcore" content, and wound up concluding that the cost of producing difficult content, that roughly only 1-5% of the subscriber base will ever see, isn't worth the return/money they get from those players. Sounds like this makes perfect sense if you look at it from a bussiness perspective, right? If most of your players are casual gamers, why not design content that 95% will have access to?...Just sayin.
« Last Edit: March 15, 2009, 01:18:14 AM by Cedric »
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Offline Manyana

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Re: It's the end of the World... of Warcraft.
« Reply #13 on: March 15, 2009, 01:51:25 AM »
I believe you fail to mention the most common reason for deaths centering around Raz   ;)

Last I checked I wasn't the one MCing. You got a problem? Take it up with the ones who are, and are fucking up. =P

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Correct me if I'm wrong but Kara was also cleared within a couple of weeks of TBC being released?  I wouldn't be surprised if it were the same with SSC, TK, MH and BT if the attunements didn't exist (and they possibly could have been done even with the attunements... alas I do not know their history.)  One can't compare world firsts because the guilds competing for these spend months on the PTR practicing to the point that when released on live it is pretty much on farm for them (and raid 6-7 days per week on live to get those world firsts.)

It took almost a month, if not a little more; also, WotLK content was cleared 3 days after its release. These people just got to 80 and went in there with greens, probably not even wiping more than a couple times. Pathetic.

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Also, one can't compare Naxx difficulty with Sunwell because TBC was also released in different stages.  That is why I'm not concerned with how easy Naxx has been because of the history with game releases.

Kara was more difficult than Naxx when it was first released. I guess nobody remembers that since it was so pathetically easy after all the nerfs.

Stuff.

I agree. They tell me to read a strat and I just laugh, preferring to roll with the punches. I didn't play the beta, I didn't read strats for any of the WotLK heroics/raids (Naxx doesn't count since I knew the strats from back in Vanilla WoW), I just went in there as I usually do and learn as I go, because that's fun. I don't need some 10 page strat to explain something that's so fucking obvious a kid with autism standing on its head while spinning in circles could figure it out - none of the encounters in this game require much brainpower, this isn't fucking rocket science and people treating it as such, somehow figuring that without a strat it's unbeatable, makes me want to scream. Read the strat, read the strat, read the strat.. ffs, what a load. So what if there's a wipe/10/20/50? That used to be an integral part of raiding, but no, of course it is an absolute necessity to lick up the scraps that fell from the table of the high end raiding guilds.
« Last Edit: March 15, 2009, 02:27:46 AM by Manyana »

Offline Dweedy

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Re: It's the end of the World... of Warcraft.
« Reply #14 on: March 15, 2009, 08:26:09 AM »
One of the things that irks me so much about WOTLK raiding, and to a lesser extent in TBC is people not knowing their class. Gone are the days when you had to know how to play your class to clear any content at all.

I guess on a similar level regarding strategys, since all content is cleared and pretty simple now - who really wants to step into Naxxramas with people who dont know a gnome from a dwarf? Just my opinion.
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