Author Topic: It's the end of the World... of Warcraft.  (Read 9732 times)

Offline Arkanos

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Re: It's the end of the World... of Warcraft.
« Reply #15 on: March 15, 2009, 10:08:05 PM »
who really wants to step into Naxxramas with people who dont know a gnome from a dwarf? Just my opinion.

Dwarves drink beer and gnomes are for punting, right?
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Offline Pudie

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Re: It's the end of the World... of Warcraft.
« Reply #16 on: March 16, 2009, 04:52:06 AM »
One of the things that irks me so much about WOTLK raiding, and to a lesser extent in TBC is people not knowing their class. Gone are the days when you had to know how to play your class to clear any content at all.

I didnt raid back then, but from what I've gathered it wasnt exactly like that.  With 40 people you could pretty much have a few people AFK and no one would be able to tell.  Whereas on some of the more difficult fights in TBC even one person dead meant a wipe entirely.

Offline Dweedy

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Re: It's the end of the World... of Warcraft.
« Reply #17 on: March 16, 2009, 05:41:20 AM »
One of the things that irks me so much about WOTLK raiding, and to a lesser extent in TBC is people not knowing their class. Gone are the days when you had to know how to play your class to clear any content at all.

I didnt raid back then, but from what I've gathered it wasnt exactly like that.  With 40 people you could pretty much have a few people AFK and no one would be able to tell.  Whereas on some of the more difficult fights in TBC even one person dead meant a wipe entirely.

It was just much much easier to get lost in the crowd. Trash, maybe. But on bosses like Nefarian, one person screw's up and you all know about. It just seems like anyone can do anything with any class now, things are so generalised that no one is special.
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Offline Scrimm

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Re: It's the end of the World... of Warcraft.
« Reply #18 on: March 16, 2009, 05:21:12 PM »
I agree with Cedric. Can't really have it both ways. Saying that you want harder content but then on raids telling everyone they have to read all the strategy guides and be up to a certain standard. If you want hard do like Cedric said. Go in blind with what you think will work for classes and gear and see how well you do. I am sure that then it will be a lot harder. Want hard? Maybe not take people who are epicced from Heroics and badge gear. Then you can see some of it hard. Or if you want hard go for the achievements. Some of them are hard. Not all of them but some.

I think what takes away from WoW IMO are the Arena and hardcore people/raiders. Especially Arena. Think how many changes have been made based solely on it doesn't work for Arena. Nothing about it doesn't work for PVE, just that it won't work for Arena.

The vast majority of people who play are not hardcore. If hardcore players were to go away WoW would continue to prosper. If casual players went away WoW would dry up.

The game itself is really designed to make it easy or hard. It's all up to you. You want it hard don't gear up to the nth degree before running raids, take people who just dinged 80. You want easy take hardcore players. It's all in your hands.

Though I do agree that there should have been more content in WotLK.

Offline Pudie

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Re: It's the end of the World... of Warcraft.
« Reply #19 on: March 16, 2009, 08:15:42 PM »
I will agree that the amount of addons and strats, plus the fact that Nax is reusued, made things easier.  And this tier of raid content was designed to be easier than Kara was when it came out. 

I do think the amount of content we have now is about equal to TBCs launch though, and should be the same all is said and done.  TBC didnt launch with Black Temple, Sunwell, or ZA.  Wrath has 3 confirmed major patches on the way.  Ulduar, a mystery raid, and then Icecrown.  With the launch we got Northrend, which is bigger and much more well designed, a new BG, an outdoor "battleground", 4(I think) raids.  Granted the main one was reused.    In addition to Ulduar 3.1 is also going to have the argent tourny which is going to stay.

I understand some of the problems people have with the game, but at the same time I still see a great game.   

Offline quixote

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Re: It's the end of the World... of Warcraft.
« Reply #20 on: March 17, 2009, 10:41:27 AM »
from what i can tell:  Naxx is easy in greens.  Naxx is also easy in a full set of badge and heroic epics/blues.  The difference is not necessarily ease, but the fact that you spend 5 hours in a place when you "could" do it in 2.  I don't want hard mode via taking people who put less effort into preparing.  I want hard mode via: after preparation, you actually have to play well.  The challenge of the game shouldn't be (obviously IMO) going in blind, or going in under geared.  It should require practice playing your class, learning about what abilities are most useful for the spec you enjoy playing, and focusing.  So yeah, you could make the game harder by being under-geared or not communicating with players who've already attempted the content, but it should be more about skill and less about rewarding people who put less effort in the game and thanking them for making it more challenging.

Offline Genevyeve

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Re: It's the end of the World... of Warcraft.
« Reply #21 on: March 17, 2009, 09:16:47 PM »
The issue of releasing vanilla servers was raised and responded to by some lock named Ergos which made me chuckle.

Now I don't know how realistic his description is since I never played vanilla.

http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/thread.html?topicId=15673103319&sid=1

Offline Jetnee

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Re: It's the end of the World... of Warcraft.
« Reply #22 on: March 18, 2009, 08:08:30 PM »
Someone buy Ergos a beer! Well spoken!

Offline Shoy

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Re: It's the end of the World... of Warcraft.
« Reply #23 on: March 23, 2009, 09:25:59 AM »
Both Mu'ru and Kil'jaden were defeated soundly the week they were unlocked on live realms.  Both regarded as (Mu'ru more-so) the hardest bosses ever released in the hardest raid zone ever released.

I do expect Yogg-Saron to at the very least fall in 10 man the very day 3.1 drops, if not then, the day after.  And very very likely 25 man as well.  If not it's likely overtuned.  They threw a pacing mechanism into Black Temple called Mother Shahraz preventing people from steamrolling the place first week.  I don't believe they are doing a resist based encounter this time around.  But even with that pacing mechanism Illidan fell less then 5 weeks after the release of 2.1 (I'm not sure exactly, I can only find the date of the US first kill, but it was the world 5th and it was 5 weeks after, if you want to look further into the history of Illidan they even buffed him after the world first kill, no one defeated him in this form though and they nerfed him to a more killable level again).

The top guilds always kill the content right away, Tier 5 of Burning Crusade had the top guilds throwing themselves to the wolves with an incredibly overtuned Lady Vashj and Kael'Thas (Kael'Thas never fell in that form and Lady Vashj was only defeated 3 times total pre 2.1, 1 time was because the encounter bugged).  The day 2.1 drops and Vashj and Kael'Thas are put into a more killable form, they are all lining up at the gates of Black Temple.  And even before that a Gruul and Magtheridon that were the same (Gruul was killed in this form as well as Magtheridon, but only by a few, the week they were nerfed I believe 4 Silvermoon guilds scored their first Gruul kills).  High King Maulgar was defeated on many realms by many guilds before their entire guilds had leveled up to 70.  Also the world first Karazhan clear was by Death and Taxes 10 days after the release of Burning Crusade (that was including Nightbane, without was done earlier).

There has only been 1 boss in the entire history of WoW that kept players back that didn't get nerfed so it could be defeated. (I would say in the "current" era, I'm not counting Molten Core as people were just learning how to even play still).  That was the 4 Horsemen of Naxx40, the reason, guilds were reluctant to believe they needed 8 tanks for a fight.  Once 4 horsemen dropped, Sapphiron and Kel'Thuzad were quickly dispatched by the top guilds.  Not even C'Thun held guilds back, as he was another boss swiftly cleared by 10 guilds the day he was nerfed into a mortal.

Unless a pacing mechanism is in place or encounters are overtuned to a fault, stuff will be beaten immediately, because what else is there holding things back.  If it's gear, that won't stop 10 man from being defeated as it's only on par with current 25 man content gear wise.  If it's a complex encounter, SOMEONE will defeat it, there are guilds sponsored just to do that, they raid in progression times everyday for hours on end.  The world first live Malygos kill was before anyone on our server was even 80.  And no they didn't go in with greens, they went in with Sunwell epics, what they got from their first Naxx clear and heroic gear, this was the two most hardcore guilds in all of WoW, merging together for the sole purpose of clearing this content ASAP (and after doing a little research for greed, but whatever, lol).  They named the guild after the date they vowed they would have the content cleared by.  I don't think anyone was really surprised, they did it all on Beta.  This time they will be going in with all best in slot from the previous tier of raiding, unless there is a gear check requiring gear from the previously cleared bosses in Ulduar to be farmed for some time to pass, Yoggy will fall.

Algalon the Observer on the other hand I expect to live a bit longer.  He's the true final boss of Ulduar requiring you complete the instance in hard mode, where the challenge will be.  Now how hard this will prove to be remains unseen right now, it really depends how the hard modes are tuned for one, and if they are released complete.  Some have already been defeated on the PTR, but no one is sure if that's the final form the encounter will take as hard mode.  Best case though, I give Algalon a month post release of 3.1 to live (provided it's tuned properly).  If he's not dead within 6 weeks, he likely needs a nerf.

In fact, if the bosses don't fall, is it a success or failure of blizzard?  If the world's top guilds go head to head with these encounters and cannot defeat them are they overtuned?  Did Blizzard release another tuning failure like C'Thun?  What do players want?  An instanced tuned well at release of some false illusion of really hard encounters ahead with a boss that will not be defeated without a nerf.

What really matters though is will they die on Silvermoon this fast (as I've proven on the world first scale things die fast, pull the blinders off, it's always been this way).  I think the encounters in normal form could, I wouldn't be entirely surprised if Jesters takes out Yogg-Saron 25 before the end of the week (in progression times they now raid everyday for many hours, keep ramming at the wall long enough your sure to make a dent).  I really don't know how the Silvermoon progression will go as to my understanding no Silvermoon guild has killed a boss on the PTR in 25 man.  Will my guild progress super quick?  I seriously doubt it, time will be a factor in our progression likely as we only raid 9 hours a week at best.  Our second hurdle may be that we've been reluctant to trim some of our pork, but only time will tell here.  Malygos did take us 2 serious raid days, so we must be fail, amirite?  Everyone stepped into Naxx knowing roughly what was going on, and if not, you did soon enough.  Strategically it's pretty simple (and most the fights haven't changed all that much from their pinnacle of raiding status in vanilla...).  Strategy wise the 2 new encounters so far released for raiding do have more to them then most of Naxx, and it is supposed to be the easy entry level of Wrath, so I do expect those to be stepped up a bit as well in Wrath T2.


Now then, do I think the game currently is too easy?  Right now, yes, current raid content is pretty easy.  I've done it all including Sarth3D 10man (called the hardest, IMO it isn't, it just requires DPS stacking, took our group less then 2 hours to get down, easier then 25 man IMO, not that it's easy though, just I feel 25 3 Drake is harder).  Call Sarth3D easy all you want, it still is a fairly demanding encounter requiring a large amount of DPS to pull off and healers on the ball (or just a voidwalker tank, zzz).

In regards to the epic feeling, I know Naxx had a very been there done that feel, but it was really good first killing Malygos and Sarth3D (not Sarth alone, easiest boss in the game...).  For people though just starting in the raiding game, Naxx does have it's challenges, we've become very jaded, especially though Burning Crusade raid content which was when IMO design quality for tuning of classes and encounters went way up and where things like EJ blew up and more then just the hardest-of-core were trying to be all they could be as the hardest-of-core was doing all the math for them.  I got into Ulduar on the PTR just to look around, and instance design, ya... that place looks amazing.  The bosses also hit extremely hard and the people downing them on PTR are those world top guilds expected to kill things fast.

I think overall the players have improved in skill (some, and I really mean some, there is still a lot of epic fail out there) and the designers of the game are better at tuning encounters, they made changes in 3.0 so that things can pretty much always be tuned near where they want (the buff and consumable overhaul).

To summarize, bosses have never had a very long life expectancy in the history of World of Warcraft, if you believe in the past they went a long time without dying do some research and see the only things that have lasted have been with the use of a pacing mechanism (i.e. resist encounter) or overtuning (i.e. C'Thun).  I'm willing to give Blizzard the benefit of the doubt right at the moment, after 3.1 drops if the only thing deciding on who is the Silvermoon server first Algalon 25 kill is raid times, then I'll be sad to say I'm wrong and join in all the declarations of doom.
« Last Edit: March 23, 2009, 09:58:59 AM by Shoy »

Offline Thingol

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Re: It's the end of the World... of Warcraft.
« Reply #24 on: March 26, 2009, 03:21:45 PM »
It's the End of the World?

One of the things that irks me so much about WOTLK raiding, and to a lesser extent in TBC is people not knowing their class. Gone are the days when you had to know how to play your class to clear any content at all.

I didnt raid back then, but from what I've gathered it wasnt exactly like that.  With 40 people you could pretty much have a few people AFK and no one would be able to tell.  Whereas on some of the more difficult fights in TBC even one person dead meant a wipe entirely.

It was just much much easier to get lost in the crowd. Trash, maybe. But on bosses like Nefarian, one person screw's up and you all know about. It just seems like anyone can do anything with any class now, things are so generalised that no one is special.
If the game has really "evolved" to this point, that makes me very sad. I suppose this is simply because gaining gear between just hitting 60 and BWL was very difficult. But at this point I'm sure everyone is completely decked out in upper tier epics so with gear to compensate you don't have to be good anymore. I guess it's an unfortunate part of how MMO's progress. Or perhaps Blizzard replaced all of the original WoW staff, everything seems so radically different from the original days it does make me wonder...
« Last Edit: March 26, 2009, 03:25:46 PM by Thingol »
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Offline Dweedy

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Re: It's the end of the World... of Warcraft.
« Reply #25 on: March 26, 2009, 08:22:02 PM »
I can get epics from the homeless man out back of Dalaran, ferreals.
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Offline Cedric

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Re: It's the end of the World... of Warcraft.
« Reply #26 on: April 07, 2009, 11:11:21 AM »
I registered on the PTR and had a look around, and apparently Many is still correct. The tuning isnt going to be so much of a problem as the gimmicks are going to be.

Still, Ulduar will will be the -true test- of just how well Blizzard can accommodate both the casual and hardcore players. The main problem will be with loot/gear progression, where the harder modes that are designed for the hardcore, stand to dissapoint with minimal stat differences between normal and heroic item levels.

One thing I did notice regarding Mages: It seems that Arcane Mages might be having a rough go with timing Evo on some of the Ulduar fights...  ;)
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Offline Dweedy

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Re: It's the end of the World... of Warcraft.
« Reply #27 on: April 08, 2009, 09:14:04 PM »
Eeps.

Well, any smart arcane mage knows to time icy veins and evocation at the same time so no cast time is lost when taking damage. (Icy Veins removes all interuptions!).

Course that won't help if I get teleported or thrown across a room =s.
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Offline Starfire

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Re: It's the end of the World... of Warcraft.
« Reply #28 on: April 10, 2009, 07:18:19 AM »
Many guilds will clear 10 man Yogg-Saron either the day of release or the day after. Hardmode Ulduar and Alagorn will be alive for at least a month or two.

But seriously, Blackwing Lair was cleared within 24 hours of the instance being patched. It had to get retarded pacing mechanism to slow people down. Even Ragnaros 1.0 was ridiclously overtuned for the gear available at the time AND he had a pacing mechanism of only allowing 2 hours worth of attempts.

I think the game is hard enough if you want it to be though. One of the thing you have to look at is gear, and how gear makes things easier. Want to do Sartharion-10-3d? try doing it without any ilvl 226 loot. In fact, try doing it with 10 people who are mostly in Sunwell gear.

Part of the reason speed is impressive is because you are doing it with less. M'uru was ridiclously tighly tuned for the earliest guilds. It's true he died relatively quickly to two guilds, but look at how long it took for 100 guilds to clear him...
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Offline Manyana

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Re: It's the end of the World... of Warcraft.
« Reply #29 on: April 10, 2009, 08:25:31 PM »
I'm seeing a lot of the good old 'stuff was cleared quickly' argument here. That's true, but that isn't my point. Sure, shit got cleared quickly back in the day as well - not as quickly as the 3 days it took the top guilds to clear everything after the release of the expansion (remember, they had to level to 80 as well within those 3 days), but still quick enough. No, these top guilds will always be clearing shit quickly, it's what they do - for a lot of them it's even their job. However! When I say 'it's too easy/it got cleared real fast/ect blah blah' I mean absolutely EVERYONE and their dogs can clear this content with next to no effort (fine for 10 mans, not for 25 mans). You don't need to have proper gear, talent specs, class balance - any group of morons can just wander into any instance and pwn face knowing nothing of game mechanics, their class or even where to scratch when their ass itches. Call me an elitist jerk, but I kinda liked it when only a few guilds were able to clear the toughest of the tough content - it gave a sense of accomplishment and satisfaction and it meant that the content wasn't completely and utterly fucking pussy ass weak. Seriously, I feel like I'm getting the short end of the deal here when people who just stumble through this game get the same rewards as I do. I always have a ton of consumables, the best enchants/gems, know my class like the back of my hand, etc etc.... and for what? It's a complete waste of time and effort on my part when some weeaboo retard can do the same with his group of retard buddies in shitty gear.

Weak, weak, weak.