Author Topic: Ulduar 25-Man Raid Alliance Proposal  (Read 3377 times)

Offline Cedric

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Ulduar 25-Man Raid Alliance Proposal
« on: April 12, 2009, 09:57:42 AM »
Posting this in the Public section for everyone to see.


I'm making this post in lieu of the recently announced changes of how Ulduar(patch 3.1) badges and gear are going to be handled. In case most of you missed it, I'll quote the important section below:

"There will be no new items added to the Emblem of Heroism quartermaster, ilevel 213 Naxx Sigils will be added to the Emblem of Valor quartermaster, and a new Emblem of Conquest Quartermaster, which will have ilevel 226 gear as well as 2 pieces of T8.5!

A lot of people are saving up badges in hopes of Ulduar level gear showing up on the old vendors. This will not happen. You will only get new Ulduar25 level gear in either Ulduar25 itself, or use Emblem of Conquest, which drops only in Ulduar25, to buy badge gear. The only other way around this is get hold of the crafted ilevel 226 BOE epics, which come from Ulduar BOE recipes.

We have also heard rumors about trading up to Emblem of Conquest with previous badges, this is not true. The only option is to trade down in badge quality with a 1 to 1 ratio, like it is on live. Remember, you may consider trading down, because Frozen Orb, Heirloom items and rare/blue quality gems are located on the Emblem of Heroism vendors. However, the new crafting reagent, Runed Orb, is located on and can be purchased from the Emblem of Conquest vendor."




As you can see, 25-man Ulduar is the only place to earn your ilevel 226 items.



After consulting with Vixx and Dweedy in Ventrilo last night, we came to the conclusion that making a post such as this, and asking for everyones opinion would be the best course of action for what we are thinking about proposing. Our idea(s) are as follows:

1) In consideration of the fact that Excalibur does not have the membership to field a 25-man raid, we talked briefly about establishing links with other smaller guilds and forming a close knit raiding alliance composed of people with whom we are familiar with and can trust....OR..

2) ..We could try contacting those who are still in charge of the SRA and see if we couldnt maybe rekindle an interest in getting the SRA back on its feet again.

3) This would be a completely casual alliance, and raiding would be limited to one day per week, and be a 4 hour event regardless of progression. Raid days would be either Sundays or Mondays, with the actual times to be determined after enough people have offered enough feedback to allow us to make a decison.

4) A lot of people like the casual way we do 10-man loot, but in an Alliance scenario I feel that a simple dkp system would best suit a 25-man raid group. What I propose is simple: 1 point for being on time, and 1 point for each boss kill. First run will be C>N>G with earned points being spendable the following run.

5) We will be using the "sign-up" method of populating the raid list from week to week. The only other thing that would need to be worked out is a central sign-up website, where everyone from all partner guilds would have access.



So, we would like everyones feedback about whether or not our members would actively support and participate in something like this. Feel free to offer any feedback that would help make this more appealing to those who might have initial reservations about participation.

Keep in mind that this would be a one day a week -only- event. We want people to get Emblems, gear and have a great time while doing so, not get burned out.

What say you??
« Last Edit: December 13, 2009, 08:07:57 AM by Dweedle »
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Offline Jetnee

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Re: Ulduar 25-Man Raid Alliance Proposal
« Reply #1 on: April 12, 2009, 06:59:28 PM »
/shrug, I'll be around.  I'm down for whatever you guys decide, Sundays and Mondays are easier days to get off work for me so I definitely support that.

Offline Mongoose

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Re: Ulduar 25-Man Raid Alliance Proposal
« Reply #2 on: April 13, 2009, 05:18:30 PM »
I'm up for 25 man content.  I had some great times with the SRA and would love to do that again.  Monday raids would be difficult for me, but if they start after 7 PM server time that should be doable. 

Offline Erylith

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Re: Ulduar 25-Man Raid Alliance Proposal
« Reply #3 on: April 14, 2009, 03:09:03 AM »
Posting this in the Public section for everyone to see.

As you can see, 25-man Ulduar is the only place to earn your ilevel 226 items.

After consulting with Vixx and Dweedy in Ventrilo last night, we came to the conclusion that making a post such as this, and asking for everyones opinion would be the best course of action for what we are thinking about proposing. Our idea(s) are as follows:

1) In consideration of the fact that Excalibur does not have the membership to field a 25-man raid, we talked briefly about establishing links with other smaller guilds and forming a close knit raiding alliance composed of people with whom we are familiar with and can trust....OR..

2) ..We could try contacting those who are still in charge of the SRA and see if we couldnt maybe rekindle an interest in getting the SRA back on its feet again.

3) This would be a completely casual alliance, and raiding would be limited to one day per week, and be a 4 hour event regardless of progression. Raid days would be either Sundays or Mondays, with the actual times to be determined after enough people have offered enough feedback to allow us to make a decison.

4) A lot of people like the casual way we do 10-man loot, but in an Alliance scenario I feel that a simple dkp system would best suit a 25-man raid group. What I propose is simple: 1 point for being on time, and 1 point for each boss kill. First run will be C>N>G with earned points being spendable the following run.

5) We will be using the "sign-up" method of populating the raid list from week to week. The only other thing that would need to be worked out is a central sign-up website, where everyone from all partner guilds would have access.



So, we would like everyones feedback about whether or not our members would actively support and participate in something like this. Feel free to offer any feedback that would help make this more appealing to those who might have initial reservations about participation.

Keep in mind that this would be a one day a week -only- event. We want people to get Emblems, gear and have a great time while doing so, not get burned out.

What say you??

Firstly I am not sure why we as a guild need the best gear in the game. To me gear progression is about moving onto bigger and badder things. 10 man progression is enough to move up through Ulduar. We should probably look at getting better at Malygos and 1d on OS for our next level. Gear for the sake of gear doesn't make much sense unless we want Ulduar 25 gear for Arenas and AFK'ing in Dalaran.

To address point 4 since I have worked on point systems before there are a few things you need to think about :

Inflation is BAD. Giving points for anything that does not result in item drops means your longest running members will be getting minor upgrades and play gear since they have everything else while newer members have to wait in line for larger upgrades. Mandating loot leads to discussions of favouritism. To me the solution is to provide a system that rewards attendance but does not create any inflation.

My opinion is the two best ways to do this are :

1) Suicide kings. On the first raid everyone randoms /1000 and we set a loot order. If you take an item you commit suicide and move to the end of the list and everyone in attendance moves up one. If you are not in attendance your place in the list is frozen.

So say the list is :
1) Ery
2) Cedric
3) Dweedle (who's not there)
4) Valo till 11pm

If cedric takes an item then he would move to 4 and Valo would move to 2.

Dwee since he's not there would stay at 3.

2) Zero sum DKP by attendance. This I saw by Gianni's old guild (the one after Valorous) can't remember the name.

They run a zero sum list for the week and divide it by attendance. Ie if you have 2 raid days you attend for 2 you have 100% attendance.

So say Cedric turns up for both days but Ery turns up for one.

If there are 30 potential points from 2 days worth of loot it would be :

Cedric 30 points (100% of 30)
Ery 15 points (50% of 30)

This removes the "luck" element of needing to be there when the loot drops to get credit for it. You get credit for overrall attendance.
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Offline Cedric

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Re: Ulduar 25-Man Raid Alliance Proposal
« Reply #4 on: April 14, 2009, 05:10:23 AM »
Well, Excalibur is raiding EoE, and will more than likely raid 10-man Ulduar. We have the people for 10-mans, but not for 25's, and if you paid attention to the OP I made, there is no middle ground this time around where ilevel 226 is concerned. This is not an attempt to bypass content, but rather an attempt to get those of us who want to experience the new 25-man content a chance to do so.

I like the idea of the Suicide kings method, but I still cannot bring myself to be tasked with keeping up with which spot a person is at from week to week. There is also the whole issue of the drop percentages being higher for one item than it is for another. That, figured in with how the loot tables are populated from boss to boss will have a profound effect on whether someone chooses to Suicide or not.

I like the Zero Sum DKP method the most. My only preference is that we keep the number of points awarded per run to a minimum.

I've already talked with a few Guilds about this, and I've gotten a very good reception to the idea thus far. Time will tell how this works out, but I need our oldest and most seasoned players to ask around and drum up support for this.
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Offline Erylith

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Re: Ulduar 25-Man Raid Alliance Proposal
« Reply #5 on: April 14, 2009, 11:06:56 AM »
Well, Excalibur is raiding EoE, and will more than likely raid 10-man Ulduar. We have the people for 10-mans, but not for 25's, and if you paid attention to the OP I made, there is no middle ground this time around where ilevel 226 is concerned. This is not an attempt to bypass content, but rather an attempt to get those of us who want to experience the new 25-man content a chance to do so.


My impression is your tone seemed focused on loot. My point is see the content for the content not for some virtual golden carrot.

Quote

I like the idea of the Suicide kings method, but I still cannot bring myself to be tasked with keeping up with which spot a person is at from week to week. There is also the whole issue of the drop percentages being higher for one item than it is for another. That, figured in with how the loot tables are populated from boss to boss will have a profound effect on whether someone chooses to Suicide or not.

Suicide kings works well when you have more contested gear. The problem is people potentially passing upgrades so as not to lose their place. If people are honest about what items are upgrades and take whats available it works well. In my experience dealing with loot the people who take items first end up with the best gear because they take all the uncontested items. 600 more attack power on 6 random pieces of armour is worth a 45 dps upgrade to your weapon. There are mods for it and they can integrate with web sites. The initial rolls just seed it and the mods keep their place.

Hogit used to use suicide kings for Zul Gurub items that ilt would do runs for (can't remember what you needed for AQ40 / Naxx but it was about that time)

Quote
I like the Zero Sum DKP method the most. My only preference is that we keep the number of points awarded per run to a minimum.

I've already talked with a few Guilds about this, and I've gotten a very good reception to the idea thus far. Time will tell how this works out, but I need our oldest and most seasoned players to ask around and drum up support for this.

Zero Sum points awarded are quite simple. Its closest to virtual currency. You award DKP to the total value of expenditure (ie 400 points spend then the pool has 400 points in it). The important thing is just to keep a reasonable ratio of points. ie a 2h uber weapon should be worth more than a bracer. The thing I like about the Zero Sum system where you award over the course of a reset is that it prevents everyone being available for the clear days and unavailable for the learning days. If someone has got more than they've contributed overrall they have to wait till it evens out. This means if you need to bring a new person in they can gear up quickly. Funnily enough we used to call items "Yohaned" because he had -800 dkp for taking every random item that noone wanted. He had a Claw of Chromaggus.
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Offline Cedric

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Re: Ulduar 25-Man Raid Alliance Proposal
« Reply #6 on: April 14, 2009, 04:18:27 PM »
Quote
My impression is your tone seemed focused on loot. My point is see the content for the content not for some virtual golden carrot.

/shrug

To the extent that the 25-man content is the only place that a player can receive/craft ilevel 226 gear, then yes, I can see how my "tone" might have sounded lootcentric. At any rate, the purpose of this thread is to measure the level of Guild support we have for raiding 25-man Ulduar, and forming an Alliance or partnership with other guilds that will allow all participants to benefit.

I'll be posting the names of those guilds who have answered my in-game mails over the next few days after I verify a few things first. This is going to happen, whether we have a decent guild showing or not. I would prefer we had more people interested and replying to this thread, so I'll give it another week or so before I post any results. In the next week or so I plan on having a meeting with all the interested guilds in Ventrilo so as to hammer out any last minute details. Details forthcoming.
« Last Edit: April 14, 2009, 04:22:10 PM by Cedric »
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Offline Deth

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Re: Ulduar 25-Man Raid Alliance Proposal
« Reply #7 on: April 14, 2009, 04:52:03 PM »
Im down..I should be coming back this week, (i waited for the new patch )

Offline lilwan

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Re: Ulduar 25-Man Raid Alliance Proposal
« Reply #8 on: April 15, 2009, 04:15:00 AM »
I will try to make the new raid times though, as usual, later works better for me.

When i was on WindRunner we had a zero base DKP system.  The items that dropped would be assigned an amount of points and everyone in the raid got credit for what dropped while they were on.  and the persons that actually got drops would have their dkp minused by the drop value.  there are two really good reasons for doing that way.  First is there is never any question who gets the drop... who ever has the most dk points gets the drop and their total would be subtracted by the amount of the drop which almost always would drop them below the next runner up pointwise.  This system rewards people by what they help obtained for others.

If you wanted, i could probably find more info out on this dk system.  I thought it was pretty cool, but there was some back end work to set it up as there was a sparate web page (DKP service i think) that tracked everyone's points.
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Offline Ikarasu

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Re: Ulduar 25-Man Raid Alliance Proposal
« Reply #9 on: April 15, 2009, 04:21:20 PM »
Erys just being an ass like usual, you should know this :P

Raiding a 10 man is fun, especially since it cab be with all/mostly friends and people your close to. However compared to 25... It just doesn't have that "epic" feeling. The bosses don't have all the abilities... It doesn't take as much co-ordination, and it just...feels weaker. 10 mans are fun, and sometimes a challenge, but theres more out there that doesn't involve sitting in Dalaran for epeen, or farming arena gear :P

Keep in mind, something like the SRA is really hard to manage. Theres not many successful co-ops, Excal even tried to do it in TBC and it failed miserably (Mostly because of ery harassing people, rofl, but it was still bad.) 25 Man ulduar is hard - 10x harder then naxx, and I think you'll have a problem trying to run it in 1 day. It's going to take most guilds weeks to learn, doing it 3-4 days a week, 1 day a week raiding probably wont even net 1 new boss down every 2-3 weeks. Might want to consider raiding a bit more, if your serious about 25s. (Even 10's will require more then 1 night, or so I hear)

Either way... I hope for the best :D Not sure I can stand dual raiding anymore fulltime... but I could help on my shaman sometimes. And I'm not aware of any guilds that'd be interested in a co-op, since I only sign in to raid anymore >_> Dwees kind of in an SRA thing, maybe he has some more insight?

Offline Starfire

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Re: Ulduar 25-Man Raid Alliance Proposal
« Reply #10 on: April 16, 2009, 04:07:27 AM »
Co-ops only work if certain conditions are met. People cannot feel entitled and there cannot be a sense of arrogance. A certain clique cannot feel better than another clique, everyone must be viewed as an individual.

The SRA totally evolved to be more like a guild and towards the end of SRA1 there was little reason to not call it a guild. But if you look at SRA3/HoH they only managed to kill Kel'Thuzad last week. The idea of the co-op eviscerated itself and fell apart. People became greedy and moved up the totem poll. The SRA became a feeder organization for those higher up in the totem poll.

I don't think Erylith is purely motivated by being an ass. There is a key difference, do you raid for content or do you raid for loot and character progression?

Personally, I raid for both. But 10 mans don't feel nearly as epic to me. Bring back 40 mans and I'll be happy. I dislike the idea of 10 people killing Malygos, Aspect of Magic. It doesn't matter if it takes more personal skill (ie doing it with two healers, means I represent 50% of the healing), it feels like we're taking down something trivial.

It does not feel "grand". And there's a reason why a "grand" also refers to "a thousand". Things which are grand also have a sense of majesty and magnificence to them; and often small things do not.
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Offline Cedric

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Re: Ulduar 25-Man Raid Alliance Proposal
« Reply #11 on: April 16, 2009, 08:28:31 AM »
I'm just sick of the "Strategy Guide" method of raiding. I like challenges and dont mind wiping in the name of progression, it's the name of the game in my opinion.

Just last night I went on a semi-pug 25-man run for the new boss in VOA, and after 2 wipes people started leaving...go figure...>.>

I think what we will be observing over the coming weeks is a deflation of the mighty "casual E-peen" that has been allowed to develope amidst the uber easy prior content.  The joy ride is now over, and it's time to cinch up the loin cloth in the name of more difficult content.

Quote
The SRA totally evolved to be more like a guild and towards the end of SRA1 there was little reason to not call it a guild. But if you look at SRA3/HoH they only managed to kill Kel'Thuzad last week. The idea of the co-op eviscerated itself and fell apart. People became greedy and moved up the totem poll. The SRA became a feeder organization for those higher up in the totem poll.

I've been in contact with Rhonwynn(sp?), and we'll be discussing a few things in private before any proposals are put on the table for all to see. If the current leadership is still entrenched in the type of mindset that Starfire indicates in his quoted passage above, then discussions will most likely not go well. Still, I'm willing to give him and the current membership a sit down and hear what they have to say.

I will say this: Rhon proposed a 2 day a week schedule to get things rolling. After making my original post I now realize that one day a week in 25-man Ulduar is not realistic. It has been suggested to have 2 days: Monday and Thursday. We'll see how things go from here.

Right now, to make this work, I feel that Excalibur would need to commit somewhere between 10 and 15 players. I would prefer to have seasoned people on the roster, mains preferred, but alts will be just as acceptable if decently geared. Pass the word around and see how others feel. Let them know this will not be a romper room raiding outfit.
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Offline Dweedy

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Re: Ulduar 25-Man Raid Alliance Proposal
« Reply #12 on: April 16, 2009, 12:47:12 PM »
While I do support getting this going, there are a couple of things from my personal side of things.
The first thing being that I won't be able to make the raid times. The only days I can raid are Fridays and Saturdays server time, the rest are NZ weekdays which means I'm at work.

Up until recently I have been raiding with a co-op of sorts, more of an official PUG consisting primarily of members from the guild "Where we goin". We raid 3 days a week, Naxx, OS, Maly and they started Ulduar this week.
This group was primarily put together for seeing the content and having fun so the loot system was much more relaxed. On any given night there could be 1/3 new people so instead of DKP they use a one NEED roll per night, unlimited GREED rolls per night rule.
This system did actually play off quite well, as if someone used their need roll for the night they couldnt use it again. If it went to GREED roll then anyone who can use it could roll regardless of what they have won (the greed system tended to be a bit unfair, but greed is greed).
The raid time started at 9:30pm server Tuesday, Wednesday and Thursday nights, however recently with the NZ daylight savings time changes I dont finish work until 10pm server so couldn't make it back home in time at all. Shit all I can do about that, so I'm out in the cold as far as 25 raiding goes at the mo`.

Another thing I would consider, I'm not sure Excal does have 10 seasoned players that would be able to commit? As Ika said I know the people with main's in raiding guilds (Denarium, Mimic) may not want to be raiding so many days in a week.

I'm not too concerned about difficulty, everything will be puggable in the end - because you know if its not accessible to all players they WILL nerf it. You KNOW they will.
So with those things said, if there is anything I can do to help get this going for you, let me know!
« Last Edit: April 16, 2009, 01:15:37 PM by Dweedle »
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Offline bahamut

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Re: Ulduar 25-Man Raid Alliance Proposal
« Reply #13 on: May 19, 2009, 10:08:27 PM »
I would love to spend time raiding with excalibur again those where good times...
The issue for me is the hours of the raids but i try to stick by if i can

Offline Delmore

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Re: Ulduar 25-Man Raid Alliance Proposal
« Reply #14 on: September 24, 2009, 07:37:56 PM »
If I could add anything from the Up/Down the ladder of guilds on this server that I've seen, I would say the only thing that really matters is the raid leader. If you have someone who can lead a raid successfully and be on top of current information, everything is secondary. You will always have people only out for loot or who want to move to the next best thing, but f you have a decent RL, those changes happen easily.